Podcast #4 | Sun and Fun: The Philosophy behind our Outdoor Preschool in the Sinai Desert

Podcast #4 | Sun and Fun: The Philosophy behind our Outdoor Preschool in the Sinai Desert

Dive into a conversation with Alissa and Nerimen, headteacher at our Outdoor Preschool in Sinai, as they rethink early education inspired by Munir Fasheh and Rudolf Steiner's Waldorf approach. This episode contrasts traditional education, often a passive absorption of fixed knowledge, with learning's natural, ever-present process—like breathing. Check out our Blog about Radical Education.

We critique standard schooling's rigid curriculums and explore an approach that embraces experiential learning, child-led exploration, and integration with the local culture and environment. This method respects each child's journey and sees the community and nature as key educators.

Alissa and Nerimen share insights on creating a learning environment that fosters critical thinking, creativity, and independence, drawing on personal stories and Fasheh's philosophy. They invite listeners to reflect on the potential of education that cultivates holistic, compassionate individuals connected to their world.
This discussion encourages a reevaluation of learning's essence, promoting a future where education aligns with wisdom, context, and community.

‎Sage Sistas Podcast: Sun and Fun: The Philosophy behind our Outdoor Preschool in the Sinai Desert with Nerimen on Apple Podcasts
‎Show Sage Sistas Podcast, Ep Sun and Fun: The Philosophy behind our Outdoor Preschool in the Sinai Desert with Nerimen - 3 Apr 2024


I would like to start by comparing education to learning you know and how these two words are not synonymous they're very different when I say educate to educate you it means I'm doing something to you so you're being passive you no it's like I am feeding you I feeding you information, I'm feeding your methods, the student or the learner is passive, even the teacher is passing, because he's just like executing the lesson plan, the curriculum, which is always pre -decided, always predetermined by someone else, somewhere else.

Yeah, so these things are just like bots. Someone else thought of them. They're not for your context, environment. Someone doesn't know you as a teacher, doesn' t know the children, the kids, the place.

It's very standard, etc., while learning is very natural. it's a natural function as like when your fascia says learning is like breathing so first it happening all the time you're learning all the times you are not just learning in school or when you reading a book like and secondly just like breathing it is happening whether or not you were aware of it you know like you're I'm just having conversation with you and in the back of my mind I just learning so many things I can't even count right now you know and people who have children know this how they're just like you no learning and growing every day like your not necessarily feeding them these things or teaching them these thing so it happens all the time it happens whether you're aware of it or not and just like breathing it goes in and out.

They're supposed to inhale and exhale. In education we're always inhaling we taking information like consuming, consuming. We're not exhaling, we are not producing anything we not creating. Munir Fasha like...

Tell a little bit about him like who is he and... Yeah, okay, just gonna finish this idea about when you go to school, like we're supposed to memorize things, you're suppose to understand, like do all the exercises while doing a project, doing work is like very important part of learning.

Some people actually learn by doing. So this is the analogy about learning is like breathing, this is where it ends. Munir Fasha is a teacher, a true teacher a thinker and he he has a lot of books a, lot talks about difference between education and learning, basically.

And he has very strong criticism of education, the school system, and a vision, more importantly, about how it's supposed to be, how should be. Yeah. It's funny how you said, like, it comes in and out.

I remember when I was in college and I was studying for the final exams, I always called it academic bulimia. I felt like I'm eating in all the material and then I am just puking it out at the exam and that's it.

That I not really using it anymore. And everybody used to say this is so bullshit, this such bullshit. I will never use this in my life. And then I actually thought, what is the purpose of this type of education in college?

So I was thinking the purposes must be that you kind of like find a way to go through this competitive environment, you know, when they cut off half of 600 students And then next semester we cut again of half of 300 students.

It's so competitive and it's much to learn. I studied economics in the first degree and the material was insane and I couldn't really get the purpose of it. So I thought it was just like maybe for the sake of learning this way, like this is the way.

Like you need to learn this way in order to kind of like compete against the other ones And this is what makes you better because you can You can How to say like survive in this competitive Hostile world like Hunger Games or something.

Yeah, like a bit like educational Hunger games. Exactly Yeah I used to think the same I use to thing it's good that we throw it up in the exam because it so toxic to Stay in our minds like the things we learn.

I mean It's just those empty big words that don't really have meaning in everyday life. So why would we keep it at home? If we're not using it, our mind is going to filter it. Because our minds know what to do.

So we, we plan to open this preschool for our little angels starting September. And so the idea was to have an outdoor preschool where the focus is on the kids going out every day and have like real experiences outside which are relevant to their environment here in Dahab.

and use the resources we have here in that hub use to see you use the goats use, the animals we have, here use bettering culture and make it part of this very tailored custom approach which we want to like create for for the kids so yeah and we had already several conversations about it.

So I would like to hear what you basically because there's like so many feelings I had about that. Like, oh, this feels right. This feels, right, it feels like for them to go out every day. But I was not even really able to put it all in words.

And then the conversations we had, you put it so nicely into words with Munir Farshal's words and other people's word. So yes, this is why I would love to like hear some some thoughts of you in that that aspect Yeah, so the idea is like the way I imagine it like life isn't the school, right?

So we're not gonna be making a school. That is a bubble that is separate from Everyday life and people and community So the actual physical school is just like space you know just like space to to make life easier basically but but the actual school is gonna be integrating these kids in in life you know in everyday life here in that whether it's going out walking talking to people, interviewing, you know, business owners, shopping, doing work actually, whether it's cleaning the beaches, whether its fixing something, like just you know and just let them, let Adam, what did I want to say?

As a comparison, for example, because we have another school where, in Egypt, kids go to school at the age of four. And I have the story, I keep saying, like how we were in Spain with my husband and my niece went to kg1 like first year of school basically kindergarten one they call it and then I bought her a little cute bag in Spain and then i brought it to her here because she would go next year to school and my sister -in -law like laughed very hard and said hahaha like all her books are not going to fit into this tiny bag I'm like what do you mean what school what books like Also, how big are these books?

Like why is a four -year -old having these books so she packed out these books like she started showing me the books she has she had a huge book like A4 size like I don't know like probably two centimeters thick which is math English and Arabic and all of them she had to take to school every day, she's four.

She had to sit down at the desk with the age of four and learning, writing and math and languages. And also everybody is so stressed here about that, that they need to learn sooner than later to write into count.

So yeah, what's your opinion to that and how how do you think it's gonna look for us I mean I think first let kids be kids just let them live this period fully and then just as we we said earlier about learning it just happens by itself if you just like make an environment for them you don't even have to do much really you're just letting them be they they will learn they would know what to learn, they will decide what's important for them to learn.

What's interesting for them. To learn you're giving them agency. Really? You're not deciding for them subjects or or lessons they would they would learn the lesson that is necessary for them and each one might like learn a different lesson, you know because each one of them might need a different lesson you know there is no from the same action you mean exactly exactly yeah and by many ways it's not just a teacher and classroom and a school book some kids learn by listening to like someone some kid learn buy just looking noticing observing other kids learn by moving and maybe touching you know so and and some kids do but learn by by doing and playing how can you explain a bit it's very foreign concept for many people and also was for me I still have kind of foreign I've still don't quite understand it like this child -led learning like how does it work because every time I'm saying child led learning that people think okay we just gonna like, I don't know, trash the place.

And like how can we like what is trial? How can you follow the trial, how does it work? how do you understand it works? Because that's like every time even if I'm talking to my husband, then I am telling what you mean it's trial then we're just going to do what they say the whole day.

No, you know like it like no. So how does that how Does it look? Yeah, a lot of people would think Montessori for example, They would be like just let the child decide what they want to let them do the things by themselves and a lot of Montessori things like like apply here but also I think for me in the way like I would answer this is just by asking questions, you know like instead of assuming so So, okay, there's like a very good Munir Fasha story.

So the first thing he says when he goes to a school or he's standing in front of a classroom in his tours, he asks them, these are like seven year olds or something. He goes like one plus one. And the kids are, like, what?

What an easy, when you're really asking us that, like that's silly. he's like no really just answer me one plus one really want to know and they go like fine too he was like you just answered me just said two what do you mean to to what they're like yes that's one plus 1 and the answer is to like what you want from us he is like how would you answer to me you don't even know what I mean what I'm talking about I didn't tell you what i mean by one what I mean by plus and what I meant by equals.

So you just assumed what I means when I said one plus one equals and you answered two. How would you do that? Like and like of course you can imagine how this is like difficult for kids to grasp so he brings a drop with him and he makes one drop and he says this one and then he squeeze it again he's like the squeeze is plus then makes another drop and he's like plus one he is like equals what what do you see they're like okay like one one other drop but it's one big drop he was like so one plus one doesn't equal two it equals one so let's write a big number one on the board and like and this is how like you make them like think outside of the box you know and be like it's not what you think it sounds like you imagine it like really bigger than that so you think this very important lesson to learn in school like one plus one equals two like we invented this this just like an analogy about something this is just symbols.

Doesn't mean anything like, you know, math is very, is very like like a boogie, like bogey monster. And at the end, it's just like the way to express things just language. It's manmade. I think that's actually very nice that you mentioned this thinking out of the box.

And I think this is exactly what classical traditional education does not want you to do. They do not want to think out of the Box. It feels like the entire educational system is directed towards the goal that you are not gonna think in any way outside of The Box, like you are supposed to go a path they laid out for you which they call education because this is the path which is going to bring you prosperity financial prosperity in this life because apparently only financial persperity is one which valuable here.

Everything else is not valuable like I remember back in the day like what are you gonna do with art you're not gonna be able to make money what do you want to do the theater you know I'm gonna be made to make so and I mean at the end of the day this is where I studied economics because I thought that whatever if shit hits the fella I'll find something to do.

So we are not actually trying to train the human trades, which are actually kind of making you human, like your creativity, your ability to think outside of the box, your independent thinking, critical thinking and asking and criticizing.

Actually, even like people who claim to say that we're gonna get you out of the box, want you to think outside of it, they first make sure that there is a box. They first try to box you in order for them to get your out -of -the -box, you know?

Funny, yeah. Yeah, because like you go to school and you learn all the all these things and then there's this new awesome course to become an entrepreneur you know where they tell you like forget what you learned in school etc etc but it's made by the same organizations you know so you you go to school let's let say for example in the case of my niece like since the age of four, you learn how to sit behind the desk and to actually not think out of the box because you're not supposed to think about a box you supposed to not question when you ask one respect respect the authority and obey the authority like the teacher is the all knowing authority which you should not ask or if you challenge I remember like a challenge the teachers a lot and in school I'm like why is it like this doesn't make any sense why are you teaching like this what does it mean even what is yeah that we're like spending so much time on like it's funny my mom was a teacher and she used to like tell us about a student in her class whenever she says like 2 plus 2 the student is unable to answer but when my mum says it was like two apples plus two apple she would answer and she had another student he only answered correctly if you made it if he made the example about money you know so you had to say like 10 plus 10 doesn't mean anything to him it's very like abstract yeah yeah so only when they're thinking more and like you see like kids are practical like they know this is like where are you like but even before even Even before that, even before the practicality, I think we are indoctrinating them with values which are actually countering all these features we kind of want them to have.

I want my kids to be critical thinkers. I want my kids to be questioning the nature of their reality. To be aware of the environment they are, to respectful of environment they're, and to not obey if whatever the person is saying is complete nonsense.

But the educational system seems to do exactly that. They want want you to discipline you into obedient worker bees which are going to work for the system for their entire life, be employed and pay taxes and not ask any questions and think outside of the box in order to get anything in life.

Yeah, so many fashion says the the end of education like them the basic them like the means to education is to make Good citizens not to me good humans, right? because They don't want to Make humans they want make citizens where their loyalty is today their states to their governments to there, etc You know their systems and a good and the good citizen is not necessarily a a human Because like in Nazi Germany, there were a lot of good citizens, right?

Yeah, in Israel, a lot a good citizen. Yeah Yeah it's funny. Since you're talking about values in your new mentioned money like last time I was in Nueva and we wrote with your friend Karim like the farmer the Habiba farms owner and We were like asking him questions about his farm.

He has an organic farm He's really like telling us and then I asked him a question and I realized wow I'm like I was so like such a city girl even now like with my mains house. I Iwas like But is it like profitable?

And he was like You know what you mean? And I'm like, yeah, I mean is it worth it all this like we're in like it doesn't like pay He was like I I don't know like Does it make money for me in order to like buy a duck?

I already have a dog if I want to have duck for dinner. I can just do you know He's like so yeah in that sense Like I me I feel like my question was late so out of place and he was liked if that's what you mean then I don't have to like make money in order to buy good groceries I have groceries you know in ordered to by like chicken or eggs I have chicken and eggs so what do you be and I was like wow but it's funny like organic like fresh meat and like dairy and stuff and that made me think think a lot that day you It's really funny because this is really the number one question we are getting.

It is whether the farm is profitable. Yeah, and it doesn't make money. And it's like 99% of the people who are coming to the farm are asking this question. And then you go, why do you need money to get food?

It isn't the point. Why am I saying this? I'm not even blaming these people. This is the world we're living in. everything, absolutely everything in this world is priced and you know that people think we are absolutely insane with what we're doing at the farm.

And I'm explaining that yes, it's a proof of concept really and this is the only thing we were really doing there. Of course, it is important for a project to earn money a little bit because money is energy in our world.

like it is energy. Yeah, it's important that the farm generates, but it truly very far away from being profitable. And it funny how all the people care, I mean ask the same thing kind of, as if this is the only thing which matters.

They feel very connected to the cause, they feel very connected to the farm. They feel really romantic about it. But still, they cannot detach their minds from this financial aspect of if I were to do that, it would not be profitable.

Is it profitable? Can you live from this? You know why? Because you've been programmed your entire life to not value this type of I would say, profit, like what Karim says because you are kind of bred your whole life into working for someone, into not being independent, and to not grow your own food.

This is why it's even a curse. I mean, in Germany it occurs, Egypt it occur to be a farmer. like it's a it is a curse to like like I'm like always making fun of Ahmed I like when are you gonna like start calling yourself farmer Ahmed you know he's like because it the curse it it here so we are being bred out of it to be proud to have the duck to we proud we have to egg to be to not depend on groceries to basically needing to work to grow your and stuff and it's really remarkable how little people really do it today like for their own needs and this is also a product of education like this mentality, this question you asked And this question everybody else asked is a product of product of education.

Yeah. And education is a product of colonialism and capitalism because education was the tool that colonialism used in order to control the places they colonized. And Munir Fasha talked a lot about how the communities were very strong in these places.

And you needed something to break the community, so you need there to be classes. You needed to create this class of intellectuals, educated people, you know? and you need to feed them your ideas so you needed a top -down education you didn't want them to learn what's good for them you know it's gonna break them free from you no you didn t like to like just sell them this is good this is how you become like English gentleness whatever yeah and then capitalism rode on that because the capitalism you're what how do I make money from you you know so I educate you in order to put you in the market to work for me yeah to get one of those jobs and like start making money and while you were at it I will sell you stuff I'll sell your product I will tell you international expensive school for your children I will sell you expensive toys, you know, that makes you passive.

I will sell your school books that are like crazy. I mean, look at like the Cambridge curriculum, and how these things cost and like, college tuition, everything became like business. So yeah, I say education is a product of colonialism and capitalism.

Yesterday I had a very interesting conversation by accident at work with my co -worker from Brazil. And she told me about what they learned in history in school. Like in Brazil in schools, history starts when America was discovered by Columbus.

This is when their history started. I mean using the word discovered, using like it was there before, you know, it didn't just start to exist when like Europe find out about it, those people had history before that.

But exactly, this is how, I mean how obvious to your face is this colonial agenda if they learn nothing at all in school about indigenous history, nothing. They learned nothing about slavery, as though Brazil was probably the country that's what I don't want to say wrong, but probably like with the biggest slavery in the world, probably.

Yeah, I mean, it was, when I was there, I just was shocked, really, by I have goosebumps, only thinking about it. know anything about like our real history. We're attached from it because we're learning uh I don't know Europe's history I guess you know or our history uh from uh a Europe perspective like Orientalism.

You know we look at us as if like just like how the west look at and this is how we assess ourselves and we use words like progress and you being backwards and all these things. But who invented these words and who used this language in this way?

So it's like we don't even like learn in order to solve our problems, like Munir Fasha says in his book. We don t learn how to make use of the red sea. We don't learn how to solve the water problem in the region.

No, because we're not making our own curriculums. We're just like, even when we are, you know, like making your own curriculum, we just borrowing things or basing it on the already existing older versions.

So yeah, I just wanted to finish the point very quick that as I said, like okay, what happened? And what history, what type of history you're learning, which is like before Columbus discovered you, which was completely like insane.

I said the whole Columbus story is completely insane, I don't know whether you know it, but Columbus didn't even, how to say, he didn' even. He was lost or something. Yes, and he did not admit until the end of his life that he, that did he not go to India.

He stumbled upon that point of him. No, he believed until at the the of life that he found India. Yeah that's why. So before that they would learn the history of the kings in Portugal which is like absolutely irrelevant.

And funny thing like recently I learned that like before Christopher Columbus found America it was found so many times before then. like uh Arab sailors and other like sailors they knew about it already and there are some like testimonies that he had some sailors with him on the ship who showed it yeah yeah there's even maps which were actually um predated um Columbus which showed very very accurately how how America's storyline look and they already also knew about Antarctica and you have maps which are from 1500, 1600 which already show Antarctica without the ice, like they knew how it looks like under the Ice Cap.

So there was wisdom before that and this is exactly the, how to say it, this entitled, arrogant, colonial... The whole world adopted that one story, you know, this is the fourth one single story. So they honestly really compared to all the systems, all of these wild people had, which were civilized by the European colonial powers in my opinion the wisdom they had goes so much deeper than anything the Europeans had especially Europeans were in their dark ages when when all of this colonial stuff happened colonialism basically started happening so they were into dark ages like they were the the darkest of the dark Ages this is when they were like doing the most radical insane things.

And then they come with their entitled attitude and think that they will bring prosperity to these people who live. They will educate you. They'll teach you how to become like us because us is better.

Yes, and they were living in harmony with nature. and they were like they they were having a blast of time and then the Europeans came and just slaughtered all of them learning stopped and the education began.

Yes. And the demise of these cultures began because they they brought lots of misery upon them like they killed most of then then they brought their commodities with them which brought misery to their communities up until today, like it's sad how dysfunctional these communities are and how difficult it is for them to transfer wisdom into the next generation because young people are corrupt by Western values, Tinder and Coca -Cola and they don't want to know anything about the wisdom there the elders have for them and it was their fault that they believed the lie you know because those people can tell you you are backwards and convince you that backwards is like bad and wrong and you need the progress you know and do you meet and and unique education and corporates you need all that jazz so yeah like we believed them I don't think it's really that you believe them.

Honestly, I believe that you didn't really have a choice. It was a bit like holding a gun to your head and either you do what we say or we will remove you. I think these countries really didn´t have So for example in the planning phase of the preschool we have, we are planning, we don't have it yet.

We actually rented a preschool here close by in Dahab which was already operating before and we're kind of renting the whole preschool and try to make it fit to our project. It's a beautiful place already.

Thanks to wonderful Dahlia who already put so much effort and love into this place. And so where we planned it, I mean, so kind of like I stayed away from having subjects. Like I stay away having curriculum, not curriculum sorry, to have a schedule, like classically how you would see it.

you know, Monday, 10 to 11 math, 11 to 12 English reading and so on. So now when I'm speaking to the parents and I am telling them they are four, they are not going to have math. They're not gonna have English.

They are going have reading, writing. So I already had this couple of conversations where the parents were a little bit like freaking out, super afraid that their children are going to be left behind, not able to read with the age of four, and so can you say something about that?

What is your take on that?" Yeah, so there's another thinker, his name is Hamid Said, he's like an Egyptian artist and he says, the way you think, okay so he was like, we teach children in school like these separate subjects you know and these things are not really separate in real life so they get out of school and they can't apply what they learn they cant and you you need a cohesive story for the kids you know to understand life you knew you needed a complete full I'm just trying translate from Arabic now yeah so you need this story about existence so when you look at existence and you see these separate subjects it's like you're looking to existence through a cracked mirror you know and your looking at this reflection and it's all like cracked and this is like dangerous because the way you look at existence like it kind of also the way you looked at yourself because you're part of this existence so it can't be like you are looking into your reflection in a mirror and is all cracked and like I don't think that many people will understand what you mean like how does that relate to to subjects okay let's try the anecdote for that for example if it let us say if its not separate subjects then what so Muneer Fasha says then stories because the stories are not these bits and pieces of puzzle that they don't fit, they don' make a full picture.

Yeah. Story is a complete thing. It's like a round, complete circle, full circle. That's why stories are so important because I don''t just give you one piece of a puzzle, but you can do anything with it.

You know, unless you have like enough pieces of puzzle and you can like put them together and make the picture, then it's not. very good. Why the story is like a complete circle. And stories, they're not just like stories.

They could be stories in books, of course, be story that someone tells you, and it's a story of the place, which is the history of The Place and all the stories and that can be stories of people you're meeting, people in your community.

You keep crafting these stories every time you talk to these people, right? Every time you have an interaction with them and in the way they, they like show themselves to you. So I want to be like the devil's advocate here in a way that I mean a parent, a concerned parent would ask here, so how will my child learn how to read through a story or math through story?

I context of things like information which is more abstract like let's say about nature and stuff but how do stories relate or like this circle or experience you you describe how does relate to learning how to write or learning how -to -read I think that reading writing and math are only a monster if we make if we make them if you decide to make the monster monsters you can decide to try to start teaching your i don't know toddler how to read write and do math and that might take you like um three four years you know to to really like start or you can wait these three, four, years until your kid is naturally ready you know their mind is like complete enough developed enough to be able to grasp these things and you would just spend one year teaching them that and it's up to you when they show the interest for it when they when there open for its yeah in first case you're gonna like they're gonna miss a lot of things that they would be naturally doing in order to do to to get an early start on that I mean even if you were just like thinking now Um, you know what is, what is best, What is best?

Like that, I feel like you're wasting a lot of time just, uh, trying something early. Like you, you were wasting more time trying to get an early start. Many people even say we go further that you actually hurt your children, uh at this point and that you basically need to, in order to have a better result, You basically need to unschool them later.

you basically have to revert the damage which was done by not letting them play outside the whole day and explore the world on their own then then like then you do good to I mean what are you actually racing for you're actually racing or being a part of this very competitive corporate world which is them worshipping money and commodities.

So this is this is the early start you're talking about. This is why everybody is so stressed to teach them how to read and write so they have a good chance in this very, very very competitive environment.

However, I am always trying to relate to like the natural experience of being back in the tribe, living in a tribe. So kids would not do that, like they would explore nature, they would connect with nature because kids I think also have kind of different capabilities than us.

They are able to perceive reality differently, they are I, think able, to connect with animals and with Nature on a different level and a level which you were already unschooled to do, like you were bred out of these abilities because we went to normal school.

So every type of creative spark, which was in us, if you came to your mom and said, Oh, mommy, I saw a ghost. She would say, I mean, don't make it up, you know, that's nonsense. Actually this is such a funny thing that, so I was watching the, um, showing my daughter this cartoon now, it's called my neighbor Totoro, I recommend it very much.

It's Japanese and there's like these two girls which are moving into a house and the house has spirits which is often like spirits nest themselves in a home where nobody lives. So then the father asked the girls to check everywhere that they're where the spirits are and get rid of them.

And I'm like, that's, it's not part of my culture, you know, interesting. So I mean, what are you going to do? So then they were looking everywhere for the spirit. And then they found then, they went to the dark attic.

And they started screaming. They saw the Spirit and then decided screaming and I like Yeah, this is the reaction I'm waiting for. This is like 100% of all reactions I always saw in my life. Children reacting or adults reacting to spirits is that they are super afraid.

However, they didn't scream because they were afraid, because this was what they're supposed to do. And after that, they started laughing like crazy, like a fake laugh to cast the spirits out, because spirits hate children's laughter.

I mean, and so they were like, they screamed, and then they laughed very hard. And then, you think they're gone? You think they are gone. They were not scared for seconds, so it was part of their education to deal with these types of problems.

They are educated not into being afraid of them, but it's part of the natural way of things that empty houses might have spirits and they moved into an empty house. So yes, it's probable that they have spirit in there.

So they were taught on how to deal with the situation and were thought not to be afraid. It was so foreign to me, like this whole thing was foreign. I'm like, wow, so it means that everything I know about spirits like Caspar the little friendly ghost who was always so sad that everybody was so afraid of him is just a western kind of made -up thing that you're supposed to be afraid about.

But in Japan for example they don't completely do not like cultivate this type of thought. Yeah, a lot of anime movies have like spirits in them, like almost always. But every time you have spirits and western cartoons, you will see that all the children are afraid of them.

So this is what I was so surprised about, that it was absolutely natural for them not to be afraid. And that I thought, okay, they're screaming, finally, they are screaming. But they were not screaming because they weren't afraid, you know?

So then it hit me how, like, this hit how education grows so deep in every layer of society, you know like every little thing that in other places it can be completely different based on how you frame it.

Yeah let's say something like education why? Right? So if the aim is knowledge, science, progress, then is that really what you want? I mean the nuclear bomb was a product of knowledge and science and progress.

And like, where did that take us? You know, and a lot of similar things like whether it's like weapons or like global warming or pollution and all these things. These are like the results of knowledge and science, and progress right but like Munir Fasha suggests an alternative like and what about wisdom you know I mean nowadays maybe a lot of people have seen Oppenheimer so Oppanheimer was very knowledgeable you know and like he did his job very well but look where what did that get him and And got us really, you know, it's it not enough like knowledge it by itself could be means to to bad things and Science and all these words.

So an alternative word would be wisdom. I Completely agree with you and it is funny because we are making a little bit am I putting like a circle or Heaped towards the topic we spoke before the podcast Um, because I think there is like, for example, they, I don't think that science is good at that or knowledge is a good or bad.

They are too big because they have, For example my cousin, um, like my, my entire family who lives in the States. They're very science driven like and, but there's a science, there a sign, science says so.

However, I feel if in everything you do, and this is what I think how these things came to life, if there's no balance between the spiritual world and if there is no balancing between feminine and masculine, if theres no balanced, there are no conscious thoughts, If there is no moral values, if there's no striving for one truth in your actions, then you will be doing signs into a direction which is not in harmony with the planet.

like if if the planet is not and this world is not part of your how to say if you're not part of you are part of our thinking process for example when you creating the atomic bomb and it's not part of your valuable value system that's wow if this bomb is going to like fall anywhere it will completely destroy the local Fauna, Flora, everything, for centuries, if not millennia.

If this was part of the thought process, you know, let's say a person who is a spiritual person, who cannot just be with the fact that he's creating a weapon which is potentially able to kill hundreds of thousands of people with one with one thing if he is basically only doing his job because he's being paid for it even the people who weren't evil they were at least unaware of what they were doing yeah and you need to raise children that are aware and a lot and like there's a motto of like those people, who are advocating for on schooling and homeschooling, et cetera.

And they go like, kids should spend time in nature in order to protect it later. If they don't play and develop these feelings of love and connection towards nature, how do you expect them to advocate for it and not exploit it and to harm it in their future?

And how, how would you plan to make them like reserve it? So I think that Nazi Germany as well as Oppenheimer are amazing examples of this, of our educational system which is basically teaching you to disregard everything except of what you're being told to do, just get A's and obey to your authority and this is exactly what our system is producing this our system in in the it's like producing Oppenheimer kind of like archetypes and this is also like the requirement like our assistant wants to produce Oppanheimer's super intelligent bright people who are going to serve the system be slaves to the system and not ask any questions by the way because you mentioned Opponheimer there wasn't There was an example also, the Russians also wanted to throw a bomb, I think, during probably the Second World War, where I guess, and I read the story of this Russian general who refused to do it.

He said he's not going to do that, no matter what. So he stopped the command and it didn't happen. So these are the people I think that you want to cultivate, you want cultivate people who take responsibility.

This is exactly, we are outsourcing responsibility, their actions, can see the results of their action. I mean look at the contradiction, how could you be so good at your job, so bright and brilliant and like in return generate this these bad results for you and for everyone for humanity because nobody is taking responsibility because we because we are living in a society where we outsourced everything we outsourced and we don't see the big complete picture I was talking about you only see the bits and pieces like this is my piece of the puzzle I made it very good go here it is fit it into your devilish plan you know yeah and no but somebody else is assembling the system the the The puzzle you are not being you're not being raised in taking the risk of taking a risk and taking that risk.